You put your finger into an Austrian wound.
I guess you are talking about the KZ Mauthausen, are you? The exhibition is decades old and has come even in the Austrian media some time ago into the cross fire, exactly because of constructing a victim role, that never existed, but could be seen as the birth-lie of Austria.

But: The exibition in the KZ Mauthausen is under redesign as far as I have heard, because of the very reason you have pointed out. The unfounded victim role has to be corrected, especially in sensitive areas like the places of mass murder.

Our President has just recently made clear that the victim role that some Austrians defend up today is a lie and not more than a cheap excuse. He made some more comments about some attached issues too.

Furthermore are the compensation payments heading towards completement. The last existant obstacles that remain are in the area of arts. But also there work is in progress, just look at the Klimt paintings refundations. Among those paintings the currently most expensive of the whole world.


So all in all, you point out a sensitive point of the Austrian history and self perception. The impression that Austria still at whole and large still believes into the victim role is however a wrong perception. There are still some relicts that might give a wrong impression. But those relicts are the target of current ambitions to rework our history now once and for all.




Austria IS a nation state for itself. Austrians dont belong to a "German nation" nor are they German nationals.

You have a valid point when saying that the right of existance of Austria after the fall of the monarchy was much doubted, not the least among its own citizens. But at any time there was a large mass of people, even if they may not allways have been the majority that demanded an independant state.

But thats historical skirmish anyway. In fact the Austrian nation that exists today, is a child of the WWII. By defining themselves as Austrians they neglected being responsible for the crimes of "the Germans". That was not more than a great lie, but it served as a very strong motivations to lead to the birth of a new nation.

Today no Austrian would say anymore that he is Austrian just to feel not responsible for WWII. Its because he feels and thinks that he is Austrian. Of course this does not hinder Austrians to feel as Europeans additionally. Like I do feel to belong to both. I am European and Austrian. But in no way do I feel more German like a Swiss feels German. We have a certain part of history in common with Germany, we share more or less a language, but for sure, we dont share a nation. Never.


And the best indicator for a nation still is the self perception of the citizens of a state. And in Austria 90% of its citizens say that Austria is not just a state, but a nation.

Any attempt of Germany to try a secound Anschluss would be seen as most severe hostile action. It would be an act of war against Austria.

Yes, Mauthausen is just the KZ I am talking about.

I am glad to read that the exhibition there is up for discussion and review, along with other relics and the self image of the Austrians. I never thought all Austrians believed they äwere just victims of German agression in the 30's and 40's. Most people who lived in those days must know the truth, a lot of those would certainly have told of this to their children and others in younger generations.


It is interesting to read this. I am naturally not as aware of the views of Austrians as you are. I did write: "[i]n a way, Austria is a historical anomaly". This is to say, one view of looking at Austria, is that it is a historical anomaly, while by other views it would not be.

There is a quote attributed to George Bernard Shaw, though not found in his published writings: "England and America are two countries divided by a common language". Perhaps you can make a paraphrase of this, saying that Germany and Austria are two countries divided by a common language?

I once read that if East Germany had not joined West Germany so soon after the fall of the communist regime, the two countries would probably never have merged. Their cultures and self images would have drifted appart, perhaps also their versions of the German language. Many people in these two countries were in favour of unification, but I have never doubted that a majority of both Germans and Austrians would not see any real advantages of uniting these countries and would be opposed to such an idea.

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[U]President Josiah Bartlet:[/U] Sweden has a 100% literacy rate. 100%! How do they do that?
[U]Leo McGarry:[/U] Maybe they don't and they can't add.

All very interesting. It brings to mind my one and only trip to Austria in the 1970's. Although I travelled all the way through the country from the German border to what was then Yugoslavia, I spent most of my time in Salzburg. I toured the medieval castle, Schloss Hohensalzburg, that dominates the town. And I recall well the fellow who led the tour (normally I don't do tours--I just wander on my own, but you were only allowed inside the castle as part of a group). He proudly described the use of the place as a military HQ and prison during the war and seemed quite proud of Austria's role as a partner with Germany. I was really struck by it at the time. And it contrasted strongly to the attitude of Germans in Munich and, especially, Dachau. When I went to the latter, I took a cab from the train station and the driver wouldn't even look me in the eye. Also, in Munich itself, at the site of the main pre-War synagogue, which had been burned by the Nazis, as stood and read a plaque about what had happened, people passing on the sidewalk cast down their eyes or looked away as if not to notice me.

Keep in mind that Germany itself was a creation of Von Bismark in the late 1800's. Prior to that, it was a collection of independent states with a common language and culture (with some differences, religion being one as Austria is majority Catholic, Germany majority Protestant), but not government although at various periods such as the Holy Roman Empire the states did have one degree or another of political ties. Still, there has long been a friction between the two poles of German culture: Austria and Prussia. It has never been in the Austrian interest to see the Prussian pole excessively powerful.

I do keep that in mind.

When von Bismarck (lower case v is the rule in German ) unified Germany, there were questions on which countries would join. The Catholic Bavaria became one of the largest parts of the new empire, but it was not self-evident that it would join at all. There could have been a "Middle-Germany" of Bavaria, Baden, Wuerrtemberg, and at least parts of Saxony, or Bavaria could have decided to stay sovereign.

It was not self-evident, either, that the American, British, and French occupation zones after WWII would form one single state. I believe some Bavarians wanted to form a state of their own. The French wanted Saarland to be a sovereign state, though the Saarlanders did not.

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[U]President Josiah Bartlet:[/U] Sweden has a 100% literacy rate. 100%! How do they do that?
[U]Leo McGarry:[/U] Maybe they don't and they can't add.

Hohensalzberg was a military HQ in WWII? I did not know that.
The Seventies were ambivalent times in Austria. You are right, there was never a umbelievable strong confrontation with the own crimes in such a fast way like it took place in Germany.

If you wanna know, I can tell you that even in the late 60's there were Professors on the university that hailed Hitlers work. The Burschenschafter (right extreme student network) were back was the ruling force at the universities. This took place until the Antifa movement grew stronger and stronger in the way of the 69' "revolution". The whole thing escalated with Burschenschafter shooting a peacefull demonstrating communist student.

I guess this was at least in the academic area the turning point. The Burschenschafter got into the defense and lost rapidly ground. Today they still exist are however viewed with very high suspicion by the other students and also by the Austrians in general. There are not many left, but still far too many as there still exist some.

I would generally say, the time of working up the past did not really beginn before the 80's in Austria. But in the last quarter of a century happened very much. You cant compare the Austria of the 70's with the modern Austria on this issue.

But anyway, its disgusting that in the 70's there still were people not too uncommon that behaved in the way you describe. And its even more if you find an asshole like this even today. Allthough I hope it has gotten difficult nowadays.

PS:
Could it be that you are talking about the eagles nest at Berchtesgarden? Thats quite near to Salzburg and was a Nazi HQ. It would be however German not Austrian.

You are right with that. After all Austria was for a long time the hegemone among the German dutchies and kingdoms. Until Prussian appeared on the scene and successfully conquered the hegemony which in the end led to the German unification which was in fact a Prussia entreprise.

Austria never would have accepted to have to accept the orders of Prussians. Austria might have had an interest in being part of an "Austrian" Germany. But the "Prussian" Germany was something quite different.

But as I said allready before. Austria today is a souvereign nation. (not just a state". It never has been part of the German nation-foundation. So at the time Germany became a nation (in the modern sense of a nation state), Austria allready was not part. In fact it took many further decades and 2 World Wars until Austria itself became a nation too.

No, I spent a week in and around Salzburg. It was this building:



I'm not asserting the correctness of what the guy told us, by the way, and it's not like Hitler himself used it or anything. Probably, it was just a minor regional HQ or even just for the city. In fact, I believe mostly it held prisoners and probably an SS garrison. My point really was the guide's seeming pride in Austria's participation in the war.

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Barry Goldwater : "I don't have any respect for the Religious Right . . . . Every good Christian should line up and kick Jerry Falwell's ass."

Ok, that reduces my choice of possible pleas dramatically. ()


Hm, when considering Hitlers faible for fortresses I would say its quite likely that the fortress served for some Nazi purposes, it would not be surprising at all, if even for the SS as they were even more keen on medieval fortresses.

Anyway, its a sick idea to be proud of having been part of a state of crime and our own people be in the midth of the regime, and being in top level positions.

I just express my hope that those people are gone nowadays.


PS:
Hohensalzburg is a rather cool fortress. I have read somewhere that its one of the largest fortresses of whole Europe, if not even the largest one. And when considering that its heading the center of a not that small town its hardly possible to top IMO. It never was conquered, was it?

I know that Graz Austrias third largest town also had a large fortress in its center on a hill. I was it seems so dangerous in military terms even in the 19th century that Napoleon demanded its destruction as part of a treaty that saved Austria from invasion and kept it souvereign.

There are so many things to be proud of in Austrian history. This makes it all the more unnecessary to be proud of such an evil period as WWII.

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[U]President Josiah Bartlet:[/U] Sweden has a 100% literacy rate. 100%! How do they do that?
[U]Leo McGarry:[/U] Maybe they don't and they can't add.