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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 08-13-2006, 09:52 AM
Slartibartfas's Avatar
Slartibartfas Slartibartfas is offline
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Default Fortress Europe: Stage II

Its a tragic field of European integration that takes place currently under the pressure of slowly moving masses of sub-Sahara Africans who try to enter the presumed paradise Europe.

After the raising of double lined metres high guarded fences around the two Spanish cities on the African continent the migration weaves have switched to the sea way. masses of boats who hardly deserve that name due to their pitufull conditions head towards Malta, Tenerivfa, the Canares and Sicily etc.


[border fence Melilla/EU - Marocco]

Its becoming a common sight for European tourists there, Africans appear out of the waves, more dead allready than alive. Human tragedy that lets implode the illusion of a peacefull happy holiday world.


Spain, Italy and especially the small and severely affected Malta have allready called for assistance due to the sheer never ending mass that brings them allready on the border of the maximal copeable. They got therefore now the EU assistance they called for. From this time on, the national sea guards will be assisted by EU forces. Officially its denied that this is just another step of raising the fortress Europe, but what are those military ships that leave their harbours to "guard" Europe against half to death starved immigrants in nutshells they call "boats" supposed to do? What other than to pick them up and immideately return them back to Africa?


America is concerned about the Mexican border. Europe has allready its "Mexico" to its east (eg Turkey), but what you dont have but we do, is the most poor continent of the whole world right south of us. Wouldnt there be a sea in between who knows what storm would have allready started to blow against our borders? Anyway, the harsh difference between regions with no hope and teh presumed picture of a paradise like Europe that is only 14 km of seaway away from Africa seems to be motivation enough for thousands of Africans to go into the certain death on their passage.


What shall Europe do? Is the fortress really the appropriate solution? Is it a solution at all? And what to do to stop the deaths? Just in the last 15 years about 15.000 Africans died at their attempt to reach Europe. They drouwned, they starved to death etc.

Is there any solution at all?
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 08-13-2006, 12:16 PM
danielpalos danielpalos is offline
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Default Re: Fortress Europe: Stage II

Welfare-state infrastructure development by the interstate public sector in the third world could alleviate migratory pressures.
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 08-13-2006, 12:41 PM
Slartibartfas's Avatar
Slartibartfas Slartibartfas is offline
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Default Re: Fortress Europe: Stage II

Quote:
Originally Posted by danielpalos
Welfare-state infrastructure development by the interstate public sector in the third world could alleviate migratory pressures.
Yes it could.
Allthough I would doubt its a welfare state infrastructure in first line they need. First of all, rule of law, and stable peacefull framework and the basic infrastructure an recovering economy would need.

Than you have to somehow help the Africans in order that the get the chance to get a perspective, as entrepreneurs, handcrafts etc Here in first line helping to build up an efficient educational system is what is needed most.

And as soonn those well educated people get the chance to improve their lifes in their own country, they will stop risking their lifes to get to far away so called paradise.


Its not in first line the lack of the welfare state, its the lack of perspective that keeps the immigration going. Its often enought he able and skilled one that drouwn in the sea trying to reach Europe. Those who see no chance of doing what they have learned in their own country or in Africa at all.


PS:
Ever thought what it would cost to finance an only somewhat sufficient welfare state system in Africa. Making all Africans European citizens might be not much more expensive either.
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 08-13-2006, 12:44 PM
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Gort Gort is offline
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Default Re: Fortress Europe: Stage II

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slartibartfas
Its a tragic field of European integration that takes place currently under the pressure of slowly moving masses of sub-Sahara Africans who try to enter the presumed paradise Europe.

After the raising of double lined metres high guarded fences around the two Spanish cities on the African continent the migration weaves have switched to the sea way. masses of boats who hardly deserve that name due to their pitufull conditions head towards Malta, Tenerivfa, the Canares and Sicily etc.


[border fence Melilla/EU - Marocco]

Its becoming a common sight for European tourists there, Africans appear out of the waves, more dead allready than alive. Human tragedy that lets implode the illusion of a peacefull happy holiday world.


Spain, Italy and especially the small and severely affected Malta have allready called for assistance due to the sheer never ending mass that brings them allready on the border of the maximal copeable. They got therefore now the EU assistance they called for. From this time on, the national sea guards will be assisted by EU forces. Officially its denied that this is just another step of raising the fortress Europe, but what are those military ships that leave their harbours to "guard" Europe against half to death starved immigrants in nutshells they call "boats" supposed to do? What other than to pick them up and immideately return them back to Africa?


America is concerned about the Mexican border. Europe has allready its "Mexico" to its east (eg Turkey), but what you dont have but we do, is the most poor continent of the whole world right south of us. Wouldnt there be a sea in between who knows what storm would have allready started to blow against our borders? Anyway, the harsh difference between regions with no hope and teh presumed picture of a paradise like Europe that is only 14 km of seaway away from Africa seems to be motivation enough for thousands of Africans to go into the certain death on their passage.


What shall Europe do? Is the fortress really the appropriate solution? Is it a solution at all? And what to do to stop the deaths? Just in the last 15 years about 15.000 Africans died at their attempt to reach Europe. They drouwned, they starved to death etc.

Is there any solution at all?
You could always do what we have been doing with Cuban refugees that decide to try the sea route. If you get to shore you stay. If you are intercepted at sea you get returned to your country of departure. The US has had that policy for years. The difference between te med and the Florida straights as I understand it is the straights are a lot more dangerous to cross.

While I do not mean to gloat, but it will be kind of interesting to see how you Europeans handle this. We have been handling it for some time. Oh and by the way Turkey is not a very good example of the Mexican border. All Mexicans have to do is cross a shallow slow shallow river in Texas and no river at all in Arizona and Califormia to get into the US. Slightly easier than the Turks have it.
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 08-13-2006, 12:51 PM
Iliak Iliak is offline
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Default Re: Fortress Europe: Stage II

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slartibartfas
Making all Africans European citizens might be not much more expensive either.
Hopefully this was a joke
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 08-13-2006, 12:52 PM
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W.E.B. Du Bois W.E.B. Du Bois is offline
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Default Re: Fortress Europe: Stage II

I don't think you can do much about the "push" factor. Africa remains a shitty place. Straight up.

There are things that you can try to do to encourage democracy and economic development in Africa, but that takes a lot of time. It's not going to solve this crises in the short-run.

You have to be careful with foreign aid too. If you give it to the wrong government, it just makes matters worse. It helps them to stay in power, when they ought to have been toppled. If your primary goal is to keep them out and prevent them from dying en route to Europe, I guess you just have to work more on the enforcment side, which means bolstering your coast guard.


WEB

Last edited by W.E.B. Du Bois; 08-13-2006 at 01:05 PM.
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 08-13-2006, 01:17 PM
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Slartibartfas Slartibartfas is offline
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Default Re: Fortress Europe: Stage II

Quote:
Originally Posted by W.E.B. Du Bois
I don't think you can do much about the "push" factor. Africa remains a shitty place. Straight up.

There are things that you can try to do to encourage democracy and economic development in Africa, but that takes a lot of time. It's not going to solve this crises in the short-run.

You have to be careful with foreign aid too. If you give it to the wrong government, it just makes matters worse. It helps them to stay in power, when they ought to have been toppled. If your primary goal is to keep them out and prevent them from dying en route to Europe, I guess you just have to work more on the enforcment side, which means bolstering your coast guard.


WEB
Well WEB, about the "enforcement side" you dont have to worry. Large "progresses" have been made here.

The EU has brought most of the concerend transition countries to cooperate with Europe on this. Just Senegal or so remains as potential hub with a government that has not allowed EU cost guards to enter their waters.

The Coast guards are increasingly enforced to match the new situation, and concerning the expellation of the illegal immigrants many treaties have been established lately to get them far more easily back to the countries they started their transition to Europe from on the Africans side.

Its questionably though that this will reduce the death tolls, especially as you can not be everywhere to prevent people to drouwn, furthermore are the regimes in the countries who are "helping" the EU on this, not really known for their nice dealing with illegal immigrants. Setting them out in deserts is quite within the frame of possible scenarios for example.


So I think the Fortress Europe might work in fact. But arent we just hiding the consequences of a reason that will fall back on us eventually?


@gort
As far as I know Turks just have to pay for a Visa to get to Europe, thats not too hard to make. But apart from this, Turks have a far better chance to get the possibility for legal immigration to Europe than Africans will ever get. Thats easens up the pressure from that direction. Africans at the opposite hardly have any chance to enter Europe.
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 08-13-2006, 01:22 PM
W.E.B. Du Bois's Avatar
W.E.B. Du Bois W.E.B. Du Bois is offline
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Default Re: Fortress Europe: Stage II

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slartibartfas
So I think the Fortress Europe might work in fact. But arent we just hiding the consequences of a reason that will fall back on us eventually?
Well yes, I am all in favor of doing everything possible to help those third world countries to improve their socieites, governments and economies. What countries are most of these immigrants coming from?
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 08-13-2006, 01:30 PM
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Slartibartfas Slartibartfas is offline
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Default Re: Fortress Europe: Stage II

Quote:
Originally Posted by W.E.B. Du Bois
Well yes, I am all in favor of doing everything possible to help those third world countries to improve their socieites, governments and economies. What countries are most of these immigrants coming from?
What I know Nigeria is a constant candidate. But many countries of the "black Africa" well, one should better say, from the sub Sahara Zone qualify for this.

I guess the Arabic countries in the North just dont have it so bad that they accept to sacrifice their own life most likely just to perhaps entering Europe.
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 08-13-2006, 01:35 PM
W.E.B. Du Bois's Avatar
W.E.B. Du Bois W.E.B. Du Bois is offline
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Default Re: Fortress Europe: Stage II

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slartibartfas
What I know Nigeria is a constant candidate. But many countries of the "black Africa" well, one should better say, from the sub Sahara Zone qualify for this.

I guess the Arabic countries in the North just dont have it so bad that they accept to sacrifice their own life most likely just to perhaps entering Europe.
Nigeria is a country that has recently made momentous strides towards democracy after some 30 years or more of dictatorship. However, it's still pretty bad down there. They've had conflicts over their oil exports, and where they're extracting them from and there's been violence. I think that perhaps the best thing we could do is to provide them with economic OPPORTUNITIES which would mean FAIR TRADE, cutting subsidies for food, and more importantly forgiving their debts. That would help a lot.

I would worry a lot about keeping the governmnents in Nigeria accountable to their people. I'm no expert on the country though, so I'm just throwing out possibilities.


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