Thread: Farmers beat to quarters defendin' illegal immigration!

Originally Posted by John Drake

We're not a completely capitalist country and none such even exist in the world at the present time, nor have any, ever. If you are claiming to be completely such then your assertion is as meaningless as his, O Mystic Master.

I didn't realize that USPOL had epistemology police rolling the boards declaring people's thoughs "meaningless" when they spoke in anything less than philosophical absolutes.

If it's meaningless to you John I could give a fuck.

Just ask yourself whether you'll get left behind faster in America telling yourself you're gonna depend on capitalism or on socialism.

Originally Posted by soot

I didn't realize that USPOL had epistemology police rolling the boards declaring people's thoughs "meaningless" when they spoke in anything less than philosophical absolutes.

If it's meaningless to you John I could give a fuck.

Just ask yourself whether you'll get left behind faster in America telling yourself you're gonna depend on capitalism or on socialism.

I don't depend on either one. I depend on me, and I utilise one or the other as I see necessary and most beneficial to me. So do you and so does everyone

This is not a quibbling point. The USA is not a capitalist country and never has been. We, and all other nations, regulate monopolies and have fiat money because we would not have survived if we didn't. You are the one speaking of philosophical absolutes that even their most ardent advocates call "Unknown Ideals" as if they are real things. With the exception of people like Bernie Madoff no one generally gets rich by hurting others. You get rich by benefiting people. The easiest way there is to make a million dollars is to help ten others make a million and keep ten percent for your aid.

You say that nobody helped you when you were young and in the next breath mention how you utilised a socialist institution yourself. Would you rather have had no shirt at all?

Since most modern Americans won't work at farm work, what is the problem with a legal worker program that allows people to come and work, then go home? Yet the liberals have fought this vigorously. Why? Because legal immigrants can't be exploited by the threat of deportation like illegals can, and so be subjected to substandard living and working conditions. They would have to be paid minimum wage and would be covered by safety and labor law. That would cut into profits, so conservatives oppose it. It would make nannies and gardeners more expensive, so liberals oppose it.

Originally Posted by Rhys

Since most modern Americans won't work at farm work, what is the problem with a legal worker program that allows people to come and work, then go home? Yet the liberals have fought this vigorously. Why? Because legal immigrants can't be exploited by the threat of deportation like illegals can, and so be subjected to substandard living and working conditions. They would have to be paid minimum wage and would be covered by safety and labor law. That would cut into profits, so conservatives oppose it. It would make nannies and gardeners more expensive, so liberals oppose it.

You want to know why we can't do something like that? It's because someone here illegally just might, given the right set of circumstances, be turned into a voter while someone here on a temp visa will never make the voter roll. That's the long and the short of it.

Originally Posted by soot

I have a child.

I can't afford to be a socialist in a capitalist country.

Because when the rubber meets the road, and my kid needs something, the village isn't going to come together to raise the child.

As I've mentioned here before, I grew up with nothing.

The village didn't come together for me.

Instead, I got laughed at when I came to school in the tee shirt that a classmate's older brother had donated to Goodwill the year before.

Instead, I hid in the bushes when the ice cream truck came around.

That's not going to happen to my kid, and if it has to happen to your kid in order that it won't happen to my kid I'll walk right over both of you to see that it does.

It's unfortunate that it has to be that way, but misfortune is a two way street. I got it coming, now I'm giving it going.

And understand, I'm not "greedy". I probably do more for the causes that are important to me that any socialist that you know does for the good of society. But I chose my causes based on the things I value: education, service to the country, abused animals. I don't need you, or the rest of society, telling me what's important or putting a dollar figure on how important it should be.

Being a "socialist" in America is about as useful as being a "wizard". It sounds cool, but in actual point of fact it's a completly hollow claim.

I disagree. I fight for reform to the best of my ability, I vote and live my life with my political conscience, I advocate for my particular way of thinking and try to change other people's mind and show them that Socialism really isnt a bad thing.

I mean, what would you consider a "serious" Socialist? We're not all violent revolutionaries.

Much a do about nothing, as there are millions of American citizens and legal immigrants with the IQ, EQ and skill levels necessary to work the farms ..

.. Oh, wait a minute -- at minimum wage!

Well, that's the problem with trying to be a wage-slaver -- you're likely to run afoul of some do-gooding abolitionist.

The price of civilization, I guess .. to be paid at the dinner table.

Originally Posted by Hoplite

And that, in a nutshell, is the most basic reason I'm a Socialist.

I can't be a Socialist. It never works out very well, although it looks good on paper. You still have fucking elites even in that system.

No, I love a managed capitalistic system that protects folks from the abuses that capitalism always brings. Hell, we manage everything else in human existence, from going to the moon to making moon pies. But the Cons want the economy to be an exception, and then toss the coin to see how it works out. Well, it ain't working out! What did work was our system that came out of the GD and WW2. When business was much a part of creating a strong, vibrant America. We need a fucking economic policy that once again seeks to build a strong America instead of enabling Communist China. I ain't holding my breath due to the power of the Cons today. If real change is to come, it sure as hell won't be from those jackwags. They will just celebrate more jobs going to Communist China, because that breaks the backs of unions. Which by the way was mucho responsible for the creation of the world's largest middle class in history, like it or don't.

Originally Posted by Blue Doggy

I can't be a Socialist. It never works out very well, although it looks good on paper. You still have fucking elites even in that system.

No, I love a managed capitalistic system that protects folks from the abuses that capitalism always brings. Hell, we manage everything else in human existence, from going to the moon to making moon pies. But the Cons want the economy to be an exception, and then toss the coin to see how it works out. Well, it ain't working out! What did work was our system that came out of the GD and WW2. When business was much a part of creating a strong, vibrant America. We need a fucking economic policy that once again seeks to build a strong America instead of enabling Communist China. I ain't holding my breath due to the power of the Cons today. If real change is to come, it sure as hell won't be from those jackwags. They will just celebrate more jobs going to Communist China, because that breaks the backs of unions. Which by the way was mucho responsible for the creation of the world's largest middle class in history, like it or don't.

I am a Socialist because I could be nothing else. My personal ethics that encompass helping those that need it and making sure everyone is pitching in what they can as well as a disgust for those that take advantage of other human beings boils down to Socialism.

ahoy all,

though socialism be a mighty topic 'o conversation, i was wonderin'...

IF the GOP be successful in pushin' E-Verify and succeed in pushin' the cost 'o produce way, way, way up in our nation, would any of ye happily pay the far higher cost 'o american grown fruits and vegetables, or would ye avail yerselves of farm products from other nations if they cost ye less?

also - could perhaps an exemption fer US agricultural interests be extended to manufacturin' also? this way, our mighty nation could lower the costs 'o labor and perhaps become competitive with china in that regard, aye?

- MeadHallPirate

Originally Posted by goober

The flow of undocumented workers takes the path of least resistance, a huge fence, and intensive patrolling will stop people from crossing the border, as long as it remains in place.

I call them illegal aliens, and you are correct a huge fence and patrolling will stop illegal alien from crossing the border.

But half the undocumented workers here came in by a different method, and the flow will merely be diverted to whatever becomes the "path of least resistance". It may be slightly diminished, but it won't be stopped.

Always excuses, close the border first, you then accomplish half the mission, then go after the other half.

The way to stop the flow of undocumented workers is to make it easy for them to get documents. If it's easier to apply for a work visa, and to get it, than it is to cross the desert, the desert will become deserted.

Now that's a good one, to stop illegal aliens you just them all visa's, don't you get it. We don't want them here, they are already taking 20 million good American jobs. We have 9.2% unemployment in this country, we don't need to give any illegal aliens visa's.

True, you'd need to give up the racist wedge issue, and the people who take advantage of undocumented workers, by paying less than the minimum wage and not paying payroll taxes, and working them under illegal conditions, would need to comply with the law. But for the most part, there would be a net benefit for society.

When you close the damn border you have no wedge issues and people taking advantage of illegal aliens.