Thread: The class warfare argument

Originally Posted by Jefe

1. Do you believe that the salary or tax status of the property owners should be taken in to consideration before a fire company responds to a fire?

2. What is a modern fireman's primary duty: To save lives, or to save property?

Based on what you wrote:

1. Yes.

2. Both. The two aren't separable.

Originally Posted by C-B-M

Based on what you wrote:

1. Yes.

2. Both. The two aren't separable.

Well, then we are in disagreement. Further, you appear to disagree with what society has deemed to be the primary purpose of emergency response. That's fine, I'm not saying you need to agree with society.

So, we have determined that wealthier people do, in fact, get more for their money in terms of emergency respone, correct? Larger houses get more fire response. Also, larger burglaries get more police. Do you agree?

Originally Posted by Jefe

Again, that's not a very clear question, so I'm not sure what kind of response you're looking for. I'm also not completely sure how fire companies respond to fires, or how they currently determine how many trucks, personel, and departments should respond. The way it works (I believe) is that the fire company assumes the worst - they assume that people's lives are at risk (regardless of their standing in society, or their accumulated wealth, or the amount of taxes they've paid), and respond accordingly, with all trucks and personel that are available at the nearest fire station. If, when they arrive, it appears as though they're going to need backup, they call for assistance from another station. A larger residence may require more fire trucks to respond. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong here. I believe this is a good and proper way to respond to fires. Does that answer your question?

From my 15 years in the fire service, here's a general outline of how it works:

Each general type of call has a standard "assignment" of units for the initial response. For example, a house fire in the jurisdiction I worked in would get:

4 engines (trucks carrying hose and water)
1 truck or tower (truck with a large attached ladder or aerial platform)
1 additional truck or rescue squad (for search and rescue in the structure)
1 ambulance or medic unit
1 command officer

So, for example:

- Caller reports to 911 "There's a house on fire at 123 main street"
- Dispatcher keys in the incident type (house fire) and address.
- The computer selects the closest 4 engines, trucks / rescue squads, ambulance and duty officer and dispatches them.
- The units are alerted and respond.
- The first unit on the scene gives a quick report on the situation, such as "Engine 1 on the scene with heavy fire showing from side 2", "Engine 1 on the scene with smoke showing", "Engine 1 on the scene with nothing showing"
- The command officer will determine, based on the report, what units will be needed. He / she might request additional units be dispatched, or turn some of the units around, or reduce the response to routine (as opposed to lights and siren) as warranted.

However, some structures may be "special hazards" (as identified by building or use permits). Let's say, for example, that the owners of 123 main street are running a group home for special needs adults on the premises. There would be a note in the computer that 123 main street is a special address, and additional units would be sent, or a notification of the special hazard would be announced to the units responding.

When we did pre-plans for special hazards, we didn't ask for tax returns or bank statements. We simply gathered the needed information about the special nature of the location to ensure we had what we needed to respond to an incident there.

Some of the pre-plans were interesting in themselves, when dealing with commercial structures. In the far outlying corner of our county, we had an animal research facility belonging to the federal government. A structure fire assignment there included a detachment of police officers and there was a large red note on the pre-plan saying something like:

"Do not enter this building under any circumstances without the approval of the facility director or his designee. Avoid contact with any animal which is found in the building or on the building grounds."

The police had standing orders to shoot any animals that were found on the grounds.

Not sure what they were working on in there, but it didn't sound like fun...

Matt

Originally Posted by Jefe

It doesn't contradict anything I said earlier. As I've said, repeatedly, a larger house may require more fire trucks. There's where they get more services.

Before I continue answering your seemingly endless line of questions, I'll need you to answer a few for me:

1. Do you believe that the salary or tax status of the property owners should be taken in to consideration before a fire company responds to a fire?

2. What is a modern fireman's primary duty: To save lives, or to save property?

Life over property at all times. It's not even a question.

Originally Posted by Jefe

So, we have determined that wealthier people do, in fact, get more for their money in terms of emergency respone, correct? Larger houses get more fire response. Also, larger burglaries get more police. Do you agree?

No, we don't. See, you're trying very hard to be consistent with your initial argument. I get that. But that's not how it works. For example, if you had three poor houses on fire in a neighborhood, then more firemen would be sent. But it would be proportionate to the size of the fire, not the amount of taxes paid. If it were the latter, it would still be the one fire truck.

See, this is what I laugh at in here. People don't argue based on reality. The reality is that fire services and police services are not based at all on tax payment. That is, more crime occurs in certain areas and more police focus on that crime. But you're seriously attempting to make it like "well, the rich guy pays more taxes, so more police come to his house."

Thanks, Matt. Very interesting perspective.

Is it safe to say that as an emergecny responder, your primary duty was to save lives, and saving property was your secondary duty?

Originally Posted by MattInFla

Each general type of call has a standard "assignment" of units for the initial response.

Bingo.

Originally Posted by MattInFla

Life over property at all times. It's not even a question.

Ah, thanks Matt.

Originally Posted by Jefe

So, we have determined that wealthier people do, in fact, get more for their money in terms of emergency respone, correct? Larger houses get more fire response. Also, larger burglaries get more police. Do you agree?

Well,sort of.

Larger fires get more fire response.

If I have a room and contents fire (like, say, a kitchen fire that is contained to one room of the house), then it doesn't matter if it's a 2 bedroom home or a 15 bedroom mansion.

Matt

Originally Posted by MattInFla

From my 15 years in the fire service, here's a general outline of how it works: . . .

Matt, a very interesting write up, I learned something.

Seems to me that this'd be one area of government that is both efficient and effective. I can't see any way to improve this very common sense approach to dispatching and prioritization.