Thread: The class warfare argument

Originally Posted by ericams2786

http://mises.org/journals/scholar/Thornton13.pdf

Austrians Economists Predicted the Crash Wagner Is Wrong

List of Austrian economists who publicly predicted the housing bubble and collapse - informationliberation

Ron Paul and Peter Schiff (Austrian economist) predicting the Housing bubble:

Ron Paul accurately predicts the US economic meltdown 10 years ago - YouTube

8/28/2006-Peter Schiff Predicts The US Economic Collapse With Unbelievable Accuracy - YouTube

Thanks for the links ... I actually do read them. Mostly when I'm bored but I do get there.

My path to the meltdown ... Asia financial crisis 97-98 (minor), PNTR China 2000, off shoring to China and job loss, trade deficit, China investment to US, ensuing low interest rates, housing starts from low rates, more housing starts from increased leverage (underestimation of risk) 20x to 30x, off shoring in the background of housing starts. Behind this the Fed is 6 to 12 months late raising rates and the printing and devaluation of the dollar.

The critical episode is offshoring.

I've already seen the Paul video.

Originally Posted by michael h

Thanks for the links ... I actually do read them. Mostly when I'm bored but I do get there.

My path to the meltdown ... Asia financial crisis 97-98 (minor), PNTR China 2000, off shoring to China and job loss, trade deficit, China investment to US, ensuing low interest rates, housing starts from low rates, more housing starts from increased leverage (underestimation of risk) 20x to 30x, off shoring in the background of housing starts. Behind this the Fed is 6 to 12 months late raising rates and the printing and devaluation of the dollar.

The critical episode is offshoring.

I've already seen the Paul video.

No problem...thanks for checking them out. No doubt there are a lot of causes for the Housing bubble, but I think government interference in the economy (including the Fed) created the problem and then made it worse. It's basically the same story for the majority of the last century.

Originally Posted by ericams2786

No problem...thanks for checking them out. No doubt there are a lot of causes for the Housing bubble, but I think government interference in the economy (including the Fed) created the problem and then made it worse. It's basically the same story for the majority of the last century.

I'm listening to Shiff right now on the stimulus ... which I oppose. I like Austrian theory but follow all and don't subscribe to one.

I was aware of AB cycle and central banking.

Originally Posted by michael h

The disgust would be more justified if the arrows had first, not been turned on the huge percentage of the American middle class.

To actually have the nerve to stand up and say that its wrong to legislate poverty to benefit a few, when those being taxed more are the beneficiary's of the legislation's enforced poverty. This is not to say that the middle class will not be targeted more broadly.

I would hope legislated poverty disgusts many people.

The arrows were never turned on the middle class, Michael....at least not by the wealthy.

The first choice of most businessmen is not to offshore their labor. Why deal with that crap if you don't have to? Do you really think that any sane businessman wants to pay the foreign bureaucrat a percentage for his charter and then pay the town elder for the "privilege" of rounding up some employees who will then be paid a pittance while kicking back a few bucks to the local "Jefe"? It's a freaking quagmire doing business in a third world country. everybody EXCEPT the employee ends up making out like a bandit (because half of them are bandits).

So why do we do this? We do this because even after paying all of the graft and payola it's STILL less expensive than doing business here and the reason it's less expensive is because government has decided to "protect" certain interests.

An employer in the USA isn't going to operate a sweat shop. The main reason they won't do that is because they know that they'll lose good employees to the next guy that opens up a competing shop. Will they have employees? Sure. Some idiot is always willing to take a beating but will his work be as efficient and as effective as the other guy? Hell no. And when that second rate, piece of shit product comes off the line consumers will buy it only for as long as it takes for someone else to come up with a better one for a few dollars more.

Competition makes us stronger but it can only make us stronger if we play on a level field. When we have government on this side making rules about who we have to hire; who we can't fire; how much we have to pay; what benefits we have to offer; etc, etc, etc. it drives the price of labor far beyond what other countries can provide and absolutely kills opportunities here.

Originally Posted by lutherf

That, sir, is the crux of the biscuit!

This is America. There is no "tiny percentage" that should be overtly persecuted. I figure that if someone were to come out and say that some poor and decrepit neighborhood of Cleveland shouldn't have police protection because, after all, they were just a tiny percentage of the population there would be a public outrage. The fact that so many of you, cheered on by our elected leadership, is so willing to sling arrows at one "tiny percentage" of the population leaves me with absolutely no confidence that you won't turn your eyes to another target in the future.

Frankly, it disgusts me.

ahoy Lutherf,

agreed completely, which be why the massive percentage 'o folks that hath been persecuted by the economic policies 'o the last few decades worry me.

regardin' the second bolded bit, the "so many of you" would be the citizens 'o our land. thats how we make decisoins, matey...alotta folk end up agreein' on somethin' and policy be implemented. i say this without tryin' to sound mean spirited or anythin', but yer outta touch with this country.

aye.

- MeadHallPirate

Originally Posted by MeadHallPirate

ahoy Lutherf,

agreed completely, which be why the massive percentage 'o folks that hath been persecuted by the current economic policies worry me.

aye.

- MeadHallPirate

Who do you have in mind there, Amigo?

Originally Posted by lutherf

The arrows were never turned on the middle class, Michael....at least not by the wealthy.

The first choice of most businessmen is not to offshore their labor. Why deal with that crap if you don't have to? Do you really think that any sane businessman wants to pay the foreign bureaucrat a percentage for his charter and then pay the town elder for the "privilege" of rounding up some employees who will then be paid a pittance while kicking back a few bucks to the local "Jefe"? It's a freaking quagmire doing business in a third world country. everybody EXCEPT the employee ends up making out like a bandit (because half of them are bandits).

So why do we do this? We do this because even after paying all of the graft and payola it's STILL less expensive than doing business here and the reason it's less expensive is because government has decided to "protect" certain interests.

An employer in the USA isn't going to operate a sweat shop. The main reason they won't do that is because they know that they'll lose good employees to the next guy that opens up a competing shop. Will they have employees? Sure. Some idiot is always willing to take a beating but will his work be as efficient and as effective as the other guy? Hell no. And when that second rate, piece of shit product comes off the line consumers will buy it only for as long as it takes for someone else to come up with a better one for a few dollars more.

Competition makes us stronger but it can only make us stronger if we play on a level field. When we have government on this side making rules about who we have to hire; who we can't fire; how much we have to pay; what benefits we have to offer; etc, etc, etc. it drives the price of labor far beyond what other countries can provide and absolutely kills opportunities here.

I've never said the cheap labor wasn't a reasonable temptation and businessmen shouldn't seek it. I've always been pissed by those who supported cheap labor access through legislation. Once that legislation is passed the flood gates are open. That said:

Ok so we have better trade agreements and poorer agreements. Mexico hurt a little ... but we got something back. China off shoring was a death nail in every aspect. It was so damn bad we had a bubble and everyone could see the housing starts and price increases ... and it was predicted. Why not kill the impetus of the bubble? Because we were exporting manufacturing jobs. We needed employment.

Now here we are 2011 ... we need a stimulus ... we don't need a stimulus ... it will work ... it won't work. Wages down unemployment 9% and no housing starts. Government finances suck.

Government knows China trade killed us, the economists know China killed us, its a 1.5 to 33 compensation ratio. What gets done? Nothing .. its better to stick it out ... then to manage a trade agreement thats killing us.

How important is China to America? More important then Americans? The beneficiary's are corporations and the elite. The losers the middle class.

Why keep funding the destruction of the economy? When the hell is it supposed to reap dividends by trading with China?

I've posted about the class taught by Larouche in 1965 that manufacturing would be exported to cheap labor markets. This was a long term plan with vested interests ... whose interests were they?

Yes I know Larouche is a criminal ... I only care that he taught what has happened.

Originally Posted by lutherf

Who do you have in mind there, Amigo?

ahoy Lutherf,

what i have in me mind be a pirate's treasure 'o somethin' called "purple haze", a volatile, pungent thing that be givin' me an aggressive case 'o couch lock.

to head on back to the OP, i just don't buy into the idear that any kind 'o class warfare is goin' on, unless we agree that class warfare is bein' waged by all classes....but one particular class has a mighty armada, bristlin' with the finest weaponry, and that class be the wealthiest monarchs who walk the decks.

- MeadHallPirate

Originally Posted by lutherf

Competition makes us stronger but it can only make us stronger if we play on a level field. When we have government on this side making rules about who we have to hire; who we can't fire; how much we have to pay; what benefits we have to offer; etc, etc, etc. it drives the price of labor far beyond what other countries can provide and absolutely kills opportunities here.

With the exception of required benefits, which are a new thing, I don't see how there's a solution to any of this. Americans aren't going to start working for $2 an hour, they don't have the capacity to live on that level. Aside from that, who we have to hire and who we can't fire is pretty irrelevant, and almost non existent outside of union jobs. What solution would you recommend for this?

Originally Posted by C-B-M

Yeah, I guess they would have saved money, seeing as they were 95 and 84 percent completed. Way to think that one through.

I can agree that the money to build these ships was wasted, but it all happened under a Republican POTUS so it's really no surprise.

And the fact that you can't/won't answer the questions is no real surprise either.

What overlapping programs and bureaucracies would you consolidate and streamline?

How would you do it?

How much money would it save?