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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 08-03-2006, 04:27 AM
SMadsen SMadsen is offline
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Default Re: The Changing Nature of Societal Ethics

Quote:
Originally Posted by drgoodtrips
The question that I'm posing is, in both the short and the long term, what is it that drives this generally gradual (though sometimes sudden) shift in thinking and so completely changes our ethical landscape? Is it the actions of a few trendsetters bucking the system and bending the constraints of acceptability to their will? Is it the general attitude of people over the course of time shifting subtly? Is it a function of technology or ever-increasing knowledge and wisdom? Is it simply the fact that the status quo is impossible to maintain, and some sort of change must happen?
Like in some of the replies, I also think change in societal ethics is a result of various factors. Though I think the main theme is that change is brought on by reaction rather than action. In fact, I would personally attribute most of the factors to the constant need for change in human hierarchy that I ranted about in another thread (not constant need for change in society, mind you, but change in hierarchy).

Trendsetters, for example, are people who react to and challenge existing societal arrangements. The success of a trend is measured by the impact on society, meaning that for a reaction to a societal arrangement to make sense and be accepted, it must meet a level of identification within members of society. It can be a slow process in that members of society may not be able to put their minds to or even identify with the trend before it has a real and visible impact as a challenge of an existing arrangement that currently influence their lifes. It can of course be ultimately slow if it comes to a standoff, for example by becoming a challenge to more existing arrangements than it bargained for. As, for example, abortion being a reaction to traditions of rigid sex roles in society but inadvertently reaching deeply into other arrangements, such as religion. Or it can be quick if it meets an overwhelming level of identification among the members (remember the 60's?).

I don't think knowledge and technology plays a direct part in changes of societal ethics. Knowledge and technology is in a way constant in time because we can't predict the future. At any which time we know what we know and we can what we can. Knowledge or technology can give rise to arguments for or against a certain change and thereby play an indirect part but the change is a reaction to existing ethical arrangements and is played out in that arena.
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 08-03-2006, 04:41 AM
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DGG DGG is offline
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Default Re: The Changing Nature of Societal Ethics

I am a conservative, but I cannot defend status quo. In my mind, status quo is nothing to fight for in it self. Conservatism has, in fact, never been about preserving status quo - except, probably, in the minds of some conservatives who does not think much about political issues.

Conservatism is about preserving the good things in society, but also about promoting changes for the better, as long as we can be reasonable sure it is an improvement. Conservativism is about never accepting change for the pure sake of changing that which exists.

Society needs time to adjust to new ideas. Conservatives want to give society that time.

I believe in equal rights for any sexual minority, as long as it does not involve anything but consenting adults. Homosexuality is sex between consenting adults.

There is an important point made by Thane:

Quote:
Anyways, my problem has little too do with "homosexual rights" and everything to do with leaving marriage between two specimens of the opposite sex. I see no sense in calling two things that are so obviously different the same thing.
In Sweden, we have had what you could call same sex marriages since the early 1990's. The type of contract provided by statute on this is equal to the common ("different sex") marriage in every aspect and for all practical purposes, except that the law does not call this contract "marriage". The contract is called "registered partnership".

Every homosexual person in Sweden is not satisfied with the solution by the Swedish legislators. Some want to be able to marry, even though entering registered partnership is, de jure and de facto, the same thing. Others say they marry when entering registered partnership. Well, maybe in some decades, language has changed, so the meaning of "marriage" means both "different sex" and same sex marriage. In that case, I can understand if the law is changed in order to reflect the current language. I am, however, always opposed to attempts at changing the meaning of words through legislation.

I believe the concept of "registered partnership" could be adopted in the USA as well, as it has been in Sweden, Denmark, and some other European countries.

There is two more things I would like to add.

In Sweden, registered churches and other such religious unities have been able to marry people for a long time. Some people want the legislators to force them to perform registrations of partnership as well, or forfeit their right to marry people. I believe this is wrong. Why should a church be forced to perform a service which is contrary to its beliefs and teachings? Why, also, would anybody want to register his/her partnership in such a church?

Some people have said we should do the same as in Germany, where officially sanctioned marriages can only be entered into in front of government officials, thus ensuring that everyone who has the right to marry people also has the right to register a partnership. (Swedish Government officials having the right to marry people cannot nowadays deny to perform registration of partnership.) Why shouldn't a priest, reverend, rabbi etc. be able to perform the act of marrying people with legal effect, when they marry them anyway? The German way (as I understand it) is ridiculous - religious people have to marry twice, in church and before a government official.
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old 08-03-2006, 06:05 AM
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SonofaHun SonofaHun is offline
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Default Re: The Changing Nature of Societal Ethics

Quote:
Originally Posted by drgoodtrips
Is it the actions of a few trendsetters bucking the system and bending the constraints of acceptability to their will? Is it the general attitude of people over the course of time shifting subtly?
I think it’s a combination of both of these factors. I believe societal attitudes do change subtly, but clear shifts in ethical position generally occur when a trendsetting individual (or group) pushes the issue into the public spotlight. Most trendsetters don’t invent radical new ethical positions—they read public sentiment and emphasize the direction in which the sentiment is already pointing. They’re essentially catalysts for change.
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old 08-03-2006, 06:14 AM
SMadsen SMadsen is offline
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Default Re: The Changing Nature of Societal Ethics

Quote:
Originally Posted by SonofaHun
I think it’s a combination of both of these factors. I believe societal attitudes do change subtly, but clear shifts in ethical position generally occur when a trendsetting individual (or group) pushes the issue into the public spotlight. Most trendsetters don’t invent radical new ethical positions—they read public sentiment and emphasize the direction in which the sentiment is already pointing. They’re essentially catalysts for change.
"Public sentiment" .. that's the phrase I was looking for (it could've shortened my post considerably). Too late now, though.

Anyway, I believe you're pretty close to an explanation of how change is implemented, SonofaHun. Do you also have an opinion of why change of societal ethics is/will be/should be implemented?
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 08-03-2006, 07:19 AM
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SonofaHun SonofaHun is offline
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Default Re: The Changing Nature of Societal Ethics

Quote:
Originally Posted by SMadsen
Do you also have an opinion of why change of societal ethics is/will be/should be implemented?
Tough question. Why is almost irrelevant. Changing ethics seem inevitable, because the way society interacts is continuously evolving in response to what I'll call environmental pressures (technological advances, population growth and migration, natural events, and countless other factors).

Not all ethical changes are changes for the better, in my opinion. Some tend to be regressive, seeking to restore bygone societal attitudes that run counter to other ethical values established more recently. I'm a strong supporter of moving forward, not backwards, so I tend to support progressive changes in ethics. But I agree with DGG that it's best to be conservative in implementing ethical changes--small measured steps made after careful consideration and supported by an overwhelming majority of society.
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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 08-03-2006, 07:26 AM
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Jefe Jefe is offline
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Default Re: The Changing Nature of Societal Ethics

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamwhatiseem
You are confusing women's equality to feminism.
VERY different, women's equality had many benefits -as previously mentioned especially marital and sexual practices prior to that accomplishment.
I think you're confusing feminism with feminist extremism, or "feminaziism", for lack of a better word. Feminism is equality (social, political, and economic equality) of the sexes. Don't confuse the lesbians and man-haters (the extremists) with true feminists. Feminazis have an irrational hatred of men, whereas feminists just want equality of the sexes. At least that's the way I see it.

To try to keep this on topic: I believe Feminsim was a necessary ethical change in our society. As WarOnIgnorance pointed out, prior to the feminist movement, women barely had any legal rights. I'll admit that I don't actually know much about the women's suffrage movement, but it took years for that change to come about, with several trendsetters demanding the right to vote. It was a gradual change, brought about by the hard work of a few trendsetters, which provoked a change in the general attitude of society.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 08-03-2006, 08:26 AM
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drgoodtrips drgoodtrips is offline
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Default Re: The Changing Nature of Societal Ethics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thane
Not sure if I'M the stalwart you're referring too. I would only suggest reading my latest:

http://www.uspoliticsonline.com/foru...postcount=1096

Anyways, my problem has little too do with "homosexual rights" and everything to do with leaving marriage between two specimens of the opposite sex. I see no sense in calling two things that are so obviously different the same thing.

Why is it that a sexual preference has become a method of self identification ? Do we not have enough to keep us BUSY in our society/culture ? Do I think of and identify myself in certain terms based on what gives ME a boner ? No, I don't
First, the "stalwart" to which I was referring was an argument and not a person. And secondly, the specifics of people's opinions on homosexuality, specifically, is beyond the scope of this thread. My comments were intended to provide a bit of background as to what made me think about this question.

Quote:
It can and probably WILL be some immeasurable combination of these forces that will cause changes. Things that can hinder or slow changes are small groups trying to push issues to fast and/or aggressively. Which is what I'm referring to in the link I put above.


I think on SOME issues changes are easier to make acceptable. On others they're NOT so easy. Issue dependant. Different kinds of issues must be approached differently. Knowledge and wisdom may help in some areas.
I would imagine that the degree to which the status quo is altered is directly proportional to the ease with which it is altered, certainly. The issues themselves, however, probably make little difference in the scheme of things. If you look back through history, you could probably find a culture and a time when just about anything was considered acceptable. And, as for groups trying to push changes to fast, this only induces reactionary resistance, which will never prove lasting in the grand scheme of things. Reactionary philosophy is a desire to preserve the status quo for fear of change, and that has historically proven to be untenable in the long haul, as change is inevitable.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 08-03-2006, 08:27 AM
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drgoodtrips drgoodtrips is offline
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Default Re: The Changing Nature of Societal Ethics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samantha
I look forward to the day when we progress beyond war and look back at that barbaric thing humans used to do to eachother.
To me, this seems unlikely. And, one man's progress is another man's regress. I'm interested in considering what it is that drives these things, and I agree with you that it is a combination of factors.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 08-03-2006, 08:32 AM
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drgoodtrips drgoodtrips is offline
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Default Re: The Changing Nature of Societal Ethics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad_Michael
Excellent question.
Thank you.

Quote:
I'd venture to suggest that there are several 'complementary' factors at work here.

1. Trendsetters. Humans do seem to like to follow leaders. Not absolutely, or always, but often enough for naturally charismatic or systemic leaders to have some interest and influence upon 'changes' in social mores.

2. Knowledge. Humans do build up knowledge over time - old notions are discarded as new information or new knowledge changes our way of looking at things. For example, with drinking/driving, it took publication/dissemination of the 'facts' of drunk drivers killing innocent people. Previously, no one collected that data and thus, 'we' were ignorant of the damage being caused by this action. With knowledge of the damage came the change in social mores. I think this particular argument can be applied to many such changes as you have described.

3. Human nature. It would appear that humans have some inherent drive to improve/manipulate our own material conditions. Irrigation, sanitation, hygene and mass production, to name just three, have caused enormous changes upon human social mores and the human condition. Indeed, as I've often remarked, if humans didn't possess some inexplicable 'drive' to change/improve things, we'd probably still be swinging in trees making fun of that idiot ape trying to walk on two feet (and probably falling over in the process).

4. Survival/evolution/adaption. Mutability appears to be a key element in human species survival over many millenia. In many ways, humans seem to like experimentation and variety for its own sake (for good or ill). I link this argument to the neototeny theory from paleoanthropology - the theory that suggests that one of the key elements in human evolutionary development is our 'prolonging of adolescence' (in extremis).
Very well stated. Inasmuch as I had an opinion on the matter, I imagined it to be a series of forces working in conjunction in the general sense (though certain ethical shifts may have been the result of one or the other of these things). I had not considered the "human curiosity" angle, however, and now I feel silly for failing to consider it. It does seem that there is a large contingent of people who will buck the status quo simply for the sake of doing so, and I think that trait exists to some degree in all people.

Quote:
P.S. It was only with the utmost of self-control that I have passed over your statement about the Spartans. Indeed, I was into my third or fourth paragraph composed in reply before I decided that my comments would be entirely pedantic and totally off-topic - so I deleted it all. But the opportunity to discuss my beloved Spartans is a hard one to pass up.
If my facts are wrong, please let me know.
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[b][SIZE=2]"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases."[/b][/SIZE]

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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 08-03-2006, 08:35 AM
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Samantha Samantha is offline
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Default Re: The Changing Nature of Societal Ethics

Quote:
Originally Posted by drgoodtrips
To me, this seems unlikely. And, one man's progress is another man's regress. I'm interested in considering what it is that drives these things, and I agree with you that it is a combination of factors.
I know it's unlikely. I live partly in fantasy-land The land of what should be but will probably never be. I feel that if we strive for perfection, at least we will get something better than we have. Shoot for the stars and get the treetops. As long as it's an improvement.
 

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