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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 08-07-2006, 03:16 PM
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Tree Hugger Tree Hugger is offline
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Default Re: Evil without religion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kingdaddy
Because a house divided falls, that’s not just a parable, there is much evidence of this universal law.
...huh? A house divided falls, well, if the Universe is "the house" then being divided between good and evil would cause it fall, correct? Wouldn't this support that God and Satan, Good and Evil, are, in essence, the same?
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old 08-07-2006, 03:16 PM
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kingdaddy kingdaddy is offline
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Default Re: Evil without religion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samantha
I don't know, maybe it was the part where you said religion was made by man so it's man that's evil. No need to get all huffy about it, especially if you can't spell insinuated

Not huffy at all, I should have used a smiley, sorry. I meant to convey that religion was man made and has nothing to do with God, God does not teach through religious dogma or books he teaches directly into the heart so no need for religion.

  #13 (permalink)  
Old 08-07-2006, 03:19 PM
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kingdaddy kingdaddy is offline
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Default Re: Evil without religion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tree Hugger
...huh? A house divided falls, well, if the Universe is "the house" then being divided between good and evil would cause it fall, correct? Wouldn't this support that God and Satan, Good and Evil, are, in essence, the same?
Not in the slightest, there are two opposing forces and one has won, once its the proper time there will be a seperation so that the bad apples dont spoil the bunch. God cannot seperate himself from himself, can you?
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 08-07-2006, 03:23 PM
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Tree Hugger Tree Hugger is offline
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Default Re: Evil without religion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kingdaddy
Not in the slightest, there are two opposing forces and one has won, once its the proper time there will be a seperation so that the bad apples dont spoil the bunch. God cannot seperate himself from himself, can you?
Okay, fair enough, however do you think there are evil people and good people? Do you think that there are people out there devoid of any good, and need to be seperated? Or does Good live beside Evil in everyone?
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  #15 (permalink)  
Old 08-07-2006, 04:07 PM
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kingdaddy kingdaddy is offline
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Default Re: Evil without religion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tree Hugger
Okay, fair enough, however do you think there are evil people and good people? Do you think that there are people out there devoid of any good, and need to be separated? Or does Good live beside Evil in everyone?
I've already explained my POV that answers all these questions in post #3, there really isn’t much more to say, Good and Evil is a simple concept IMO and I feel I have no misunderstanding of exactly how and why it needs to be this way.
  #16 (permalink)  
Old 08-08-2006, 02:33 AM
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Rotten Rotten is offline
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Default Re: Evil without religion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kingdaddy
Not at all logical, if man created religion, and he did, then it is not religion that is inhearntly evil, its man.

Evil is the total presence of selfishness to the point of hurting someone else to do what you please, nothing more, and this has nothing to do with religion. All sinfull nature derives from the root of selfishness, Love however is the polar opposite in that it is about someone elses feelings that are put first, thus selflessness. As with all things here on earth, selfish is at one end of the scale and selfless is on the other end and people choose how far to lean towards one or the other end.
You seem to misunderstand me. Man created Evil indeed, but he did so out of resentment to the Übermensch. And religion (and the whole idea of God) is a way to fight the Übermensch. He decided that the Übermensch was the "Evil", and thus, everything opposite of the Übermensch was "Good".

It's a master-slave morality really. The slave creates evil as a way to fight the master, and do this by standing together, and all agree that the master is Evil. Thus it is a reactionary morality, that was invented just to despise the Übermensch. Their concept of "Good" is just the opposite, or whatever is best for the "slaves".

Think about the Roman and Judean type, as Nietzsche said it. The Romans honoured the "Übermensch", and most of them were almost Übermensch themselves. The Judean type is the one you now bow to when you're in Rome; namely, the weak. You bow to Jesus Christ the Carpenter, Paul the carpet-maker and Peter the fisherman. What happened to the strong? Augustus, Cæsar, the great poets, the great sculpturers, the great musicians, the great writers, not to mention the great philosophers?
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 08-08-2006, 02:45 AM
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Rotten Rotten is offline
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Default Re: Evil without religion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by drgoodtrips
The "creator of 'us and them'" is, in my opinion, human nature. Religion is not a prerequisite. You need only to watch the fistfights at a Yankees-Red Sox game or to recall the various "race riots" throughout recent US history to see it on display. Most people feel a strong need to 'belong' and are susceptible to varying degrees to "mob mentality". Religion can certainly provide this, but absent religion, people will find other excuses to behave this way.
Very good point, but would it be called Evil? In my interpretation of the word, "Evil" must be justified by something higher. I don't really see how one could do that prior to the idea of God. However, when people have justified Evil by God, I think it is possible to create evil without God posterior to that, as Evil is now already invented. Nietzsche said "God is dead", and in my opinion, Evil outlasted him.
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[I]It is dangerous to be right in matters where the established society is wrong.[/I]

[I]God is the immemorial refuge of the incompetent, the helpless, the miserable. They find not only sanctuary in His arms, but also a kind of superiority, soothing to their macerated egos: He will set them above their betters.[/I]
- Henry Louis Mencken
  #18 (permalink)  
Old 08-08-2006, 04:28 AM
SMadsen SMadsen is offline
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Default Re: Evil without religion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rotten
You seem to misunderstand me. Man created Evil indeed, but he did so out of resentment to the Übermensch. And religion (and the whole idea of God) is a way to fight the Übermensch. He decided that the Übermensch was the "Evil", and thus, everything opposite of the Übermensch was "Good".

It's a master-slave morality really. The slave creates evil as a way to fight the master, and do this by standing together, and all agree that the master is Evil. Thus it is a reactionary morality, that was invented just to despise the Übermensch. Their concept of "Good" is just the opposite, or whatever is best for the "slaves".

Think about the Roman and Judean type, as Nietzsche said it. The Romans honoured the "Übermensch", and most of them were almost Übermensch themselves. The Judean type is the one you now bow to when you're in Rome; namely, the weak. You bow to Jesus Christ the Carpenter, Paul the carpet-maker and Peter the fisherman. What happened to the strong? Augustus, Cæsar, the great poets, the great sculpturers, the great musicians, the great writers, not to mention the great philosophers?
I don't see why evil should only be rooted in a feeling of inferiority or exploitation. Or even in a more or less real position of same. IMHO, evil would simply be a matter of perceiving anything deliberately harmful, including but not limited to anything involuntarily suppressive. The latter is most certainly a source of the perception of evil and, in that regard, Nietzsche was right.

*edited: the word "involuntarily" referring to the suppressed, of course - not the suppressor

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rotten
In my interpretation of the word, "Evil" must be justified by something higher. I don't really see how one could do that prior to the idea of God.
Something higher than what? If you mean higher than the individual perceiving an act or intention of evil then I'd say you're sort of right. Evil is always justified in something higher but it needn't be of a religious nature. Something higher to the individual is family (and other close social ties), morals, society and ideology. All higher ideals being the source of altruism and therefore higher than any value the individual puts on his own life (including the case where his own life is part of a higher ideal). "Sort of right" because all higher ideals can't really be separated from the individual (no individual, no ideals) but that's an almost irrelevant issue.

Last edited by SMadsen; 08-08-2006 at 04:47 AM.
  #19 (permalink)  
Old 08-08-2006, 06:49 AM
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Mad_Michael Mad_Michael is offline
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Default Re: Evil without religion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rotten
Is religion the cause of evil?
No. Only one particular and notable definition there of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rotten
According to Nietzsche, as my relativly young mind understand him, the majority, the stupid, the weak, the last man, is the creator of evil by choosing their enemy in the Übermensch out of jealousy etc. They decide that the Übermensch is "evil", just because he is.
Nietzsche is not beyond religion or morality. Nietzsche only predicates that upon the death of God, the proper locus of religion/morality is the self.

Ergo, any "evil" that was hitherto a component of religion (as you or others assert) changes nothing with Nietzsche since Nietzsche posits morality in the subjective individual (the Übermensch).

Apparently, 'evil' cannot be created nor destroyed - only changed in form.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rotten
My point being, religion may not be the cause of all war (but has a part in that aswell), but the creator of the "us & them" (good & evil) attitude, which itself is the reason for most wars. Discuss...
"us & them" is a product of war, not the cause.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 08-08-2006, 06:58 AM
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kingdaddy kingdaddy is offline
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Default Re: Evil without religion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rotten
You seem to misunderstand me. Man created Evil indeed, but he did so out of resentment to the Übermensch. And religion (and the whole idea of God) is a way to fight the Übermensch. He decided that the Übermensch was the "Evil", and thus, everything opposite of the Übermensch was "Good".
No I think I understand your POV in this thread very well, you want to talk about what Nietzsche said and thought and I happen to think he is an idiot on this particular idea. Man did not create anything, ever, man only chooses what is available and Good and Evil are entities at opposite ends of the spectrum, one against the other. No yin yang BS, they do not peacefully co-exist and Good was before Evil and will be no matter if there is Evil or not. Man’s animal side is inherently selfish and thus Evil, he must learn control of his emotions and desires to be at peace with himself and others, if we were strictly animals without a soul we would only do what the laws of natures survival would require and there would be no choosing between Good and Evil, in fact there would be no choosing at all.

If you wish to quote philosophy then why not “ the only true knowledge man has is that he knows nothing”, that’s one of the few that rings true, most of Nietzsche’s writhing I have read are crap and have no truth in them and knowledge without truth is worthless mental masturbation. You seem to be one of those that thinks knowledge comes from reading books, I perfer to discuss what you think, personally I dont give a crap what Nietzsche thought or said.
 

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