Saddam is still Saddam. - Page 2 - U.S. Politics Online: A Political Discussion Forum Archives

Bert X · #11 (**permalink**) 12-07-2005, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jihad4Peace

Yes most Iraqis definitely hate Saddam. And most Kuwaitis and Iranians. But in the rest of the ME, especially in the other Arab nations, there has been a glorification of Saddam as the man who defied America. That's all you got to do to win the hearts and minds of some people. Chavez is another example.

Personally I think the collective wisdom in Arabia is schizophrenic or at least unfocused. And this is reflected by their inability to catch up with the rest of the world in terms of social progress. Their seem so focused on blaming and complaining about Jews and Americans, that they don't do anything about the Absolute Monarchies at home. Maybe the Monarchies planned it that way.

At one time in the 80s Saudi Arabia had a per capita GDP equal to that of the USA at about $28,000/person/year. The Sauds have developed the KSA tremendously over the years, but yet they are at a stale mate debating whether or not to let women drive cars. To me, that's just fucked up. It's a sign of a very confused society. What are they thinking, or what aren't they thinking?

Of course the monarchs want it that way. They even taught it in their schools. They simply have their religious people tell the masses that the reason for all their suffering are these sinful and licentious people in a far off land. Its the same thing our society does. Those with wealth and power want to keep it. The monarchs of the Middle East have sold out their own people to the West in return for Western legitimacy and Western support of their regimes. The Middle East controls 65% of the world's oil. By rights, they should be the economic superpower on the globe. Why aren't they? They keep their people poor and stupid, and it's much easier to stay in power. They sell oil to the West for much less than what it is really worth in exchange for being the pet puppet regime of the region, backed by Western money and military power.

If they were to spend their money really educating their people, it would threaten their own power, however, their society would advance and the standard of living would be increased for everyone.

When your friends and family hold all the money and all the power, change is a very bad thing.

In our society, the rich and powerful have made a deal with the religious right to demonize people within our society in order to keep their power. Poor uneducated whites in The South vote against their own economic interests in just about every election for a few comforting words about God, and a few macho words about guns, and a few nasty words about gay people, the poor, and the other minorities.

When your friends and family have all the money and all the power, change is a bad thing.

Scribbler1 · #12 (**permalink**) 12-07-2005, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adaher

But, we found him in a spider hole, in Iraq. He looks like a hero to them.

Er, I fail to see how. I won't claim to be an expert on Arab culture, but I do recall many Arabs expressing disgust that this man, even though armed, allowed himself to be taken alive.

Perhaps Iraqis have the same lack of long-term memory as most Americans. True, he didn't fight to the death or kill himself when he was nabbed, but that was then and this is now. NOW we see a tough, strong defiant Saddam looking very much like his 20-story portraits on those Baghdad walls and seeing the scrufty bum in the hole is a distant memory.

This guy knows how to play to his audience, I'll give him that. He's even got the court cowed to a point.

Quote:

I also fail to see how anyone can be impressed with how he slaughtered whole villages in the most gruesome manner imaginable.

What I think a lot of these people who think we can "democratize" Iraq miss is the history of the region. Saddam is a product of the area and NOT an outsider. Otherwise he couldn't have held on to Iraq as long as he did (and still would have if we hadn't taken his regime out). I also think he was/is a LOT more popular in that country than we are led to believe.

It's like Cuba. We have decades of Cuban expatriates yelling about what a bastard Castro is, and then along comes Elian Gonzales. We let his Father come over to get his son and where do they go? Right back home. Apparently not everyone sees Castro as the boogy man and I bet the same holds for Iraq. I can't believe ONLY that housewife is impressed by Hussein.

Bert X · #13 (**permalink**) 12-07-2005, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scribbler1

Perhaps Iraqis have the same lack of long-term memory as most Americans. True, he didn't fight to the death or kill himself when he was nabbed, but that was then and this is now. NOW we see a tough, strong defiant Saddam looking very much like his 20-story portraits on those Baghdad walls and seeing the scrufty bum in the hole is a distant memory.

This guy knows how to play to his audience, I'll give him that. He's even got the court cowed to a point.
What I think a lot of these people who think we can "democratize" Iraq miss is the history of the region. Saddam is a product of the area and NOT an outsider. Otherwise he couldn't have held on to Iraq as long as he did (and still would have if we hadn't taken his regime out). I also think he was/is a LOT more popular in that country than we are led to believe.

It's like Cuba. We have decades of Cuban expatriates yelling about what a bastard Castro is, and then along comes Elian Gonzales. We let his Father come over to get his son and where do they go? Right back home. Apparently not everyone sees Castro as the boogy man and I bet the same holds for Iraq. I can't believe ONLY that housewife is impressed by Hussein.

A Saddam who would have fought to the death may have been seen as heroic, but many would have seen him as stupid and futile.

Scribbler1 · #14 (**permalink**) 12-07-2005, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bert X

A Saddam who would have fought to the death may have been seen as heroic, but many would have seen him as stupid and futile.

My point was that regardless of what they saw him as THEN, there would BE no "now" to impress the ladies. That, and Saddam probably sees this as his last chance to bluster his way out of a death sentence.

Bert X · #15 (**permalink**) 12-07-2005, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scribbler1

My point was that regardless of what they saw him as THEN, there would BE no "now" to impress the ladies. That, and Saddam probably sees this as his last chance to bluster his way out of a death sentence.

I think he knows he's going to be killed and he's just trying to do as much damage to the US as he can.

But I do also understand your point.

Scribbler1 · #16 (**permalink**) 12-07-2005, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bert X

I think he knows he's going to be killed and he's just trying to do as much damage to the US as he can.

But I do also understand your point.

I have always thought he must know SOMETHING which would be seen as damaging to the U.S., considering his alliance with us some years back. But it seems to me all he would have to do is shut up and take the stand, where he can let slip all the secret info he may have. It doesn't make much sense to take the chance of being muzzled, gagged or thrown out of the courtroom before he has a chance to spill the beans. If I were the judge I would have done all three of those things 2 days ago.

Bert X · #17 (**permalink**) 12-07-2005, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scribbler1

I have always thought he must know SOMETHING which would be seen as damaging to the U.S., considering his alliance with us some years back. But it seems to me all he would have to do is shut up and take the stand, where he can let slip all the secret info he may have. It doesn't make much sense to take the chance of being muzzled, gagged or thrown out of the courtroom before he has a chance to spill the beans. If I were the judge I would have done all three of those things 2 days ago.

If he said anything that was classified, I'm sure we'd never hear it anyway.

Scribbler1 · #18 (**permalink**) 12-07-2005, 06:47 PM

Or it would be denounced as lies even before the satellite signal GOT here.

goober · #19 (**permalink**) 12-07-2005, 08:24 PM

The other day a witness, hidden and speaking through a voice distorter told the story of how they had been taken to Abu Ghraib and tortured, when they were done, the judge asked if the defense wanted to cross-examine the witness.

"Just two questions, your honor"

"Did they use dogs on the prisoners?"
"no"
"Did they take pictures?
"no"
"No further questions......."

Bert X · #20 (**permalink**) 12-07-2005, 10:15 PM

It would have been much better if Saddam would have abandoned Iraq.

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