Saddam is still Saddam. - U.S. Politics Online: A Political Discussion Forum Archives

Jihad4Beer · #1 (**permalink**) 12-05-2005, 04:34 PM

Quote:

http://channels.attbusiness.net/inde...2a2c706bf36708

The first witnesses in the Saddam Hussein trial offered chilling accounts Monday of killings and torture using electric shocks and a grinder during a 1982 crackdown against Shiites, as the defiant ex-president threatened the judge and tried to intimidate a survivor.

Throughout the daylong session, Chief Judge Rizgar Mohammed Amin struggled to maintain order among boisterous defense outbursts. Saddam and his co-defendant and half brother, Barazan Ibrahim, gestured and shouted together, "Long Live Iraq!"

"I am not afraid of execution," Saddam proclaimed at one point.

Saddam told Amin he hoped "that you will endure my frankness."

"How can a judge like yourself accept a situation like this?" Saddam asked. "This game must not continue. If you want Saddam Hussein's neck, you can have it. I have exercised my constitutional prerogatives after I had been the target of an armed attack.

The trial's first witness, Ahmed Hassan Mohammed, delivered a rambling, nearly two-hour account of the events in Dujail in retaliation for an armed attack on Saddam's convoy.

Mohammed, who was 15 at the time, said he himself was tortured. "They blindfolded me, but I was so young, it kept falling." At the Baghdad detention center, he saw "a machine that looked like a grinder and had some blood and hair" on it, and "I saw bodies of people from Dujail.

When Mohammed objected to some of Saddam's remarks, the former president snapped: "Do not interrupt me, son."

Saddam's repeated outbursts found a receptive audience among some Sunni Arabs who watched on television. His shows of defiance tapped into Sunni resentment of the new order in Iraq, in which their once-ruling minority community is now dominated by the Shiite Muslim majority and the Kurds.

"These are the real men of Iraq, not those who hide behind their bodyguards," Jinan Mushrif, a 49-year-old Baghdad housewife, said with a laugh.

-------------------------

Though he has been in jail for almost two years, Saddam still has the authority to intimidate people, like the Judge presiding over him.

And the charisma to impress housewives in Baghdad.

This is an interesting moment in the History of the ME. I could be wrong, but I don't think that region or the Arab-Muslim people have ever had a major trial of a national leader.

I think I can safely conclude that the Arab press is not making the circus out of this that the Western Media would if it were a Western Leader tried. This is the ME's Trial of the century. Imagine if it was GW on trial. Everybody would have an opinion and not be afriad to voice it.

Currently, the collective wisdom in the Arab world is to just blame it all on Jews and Americans.

I predict the Saddam Trial is the moment in time, when the decent and conscientous people of the Arab world start to acknowledge the unpleasant realities of their govts and extremists. And they begin to voice, on a collective scale, criticisms of the status quo and a desire to change for the better.

Bert X · #2 (**permalink**) 12-05-2005, 08:19 PM

I think they might START to think about the ugliness of the autocratic systems. But that won't sink in for a while.

Saddam is going to be a regional hero for decades. We've made a huge martyr of him. It would have been much better for us if he'd have gone all "Baby Doc" on them and deserted them for some other country to live in the lap of luxury. But, we found him in a spider hole, in Iraq. He looks like a hero to them.

adaher · #3 (**permalink**) 12-05-2005, 10:41 PM

But, we found him in a spider hole, in Iraq. He looks like a hero to them.

Er, I fail to see how. I won't claim to be an expert on Arab culture, but I do recall many Arabs expressing disgust that this man, even though armed, allowed himself to be taken alive.

I also fail to see how anyone can be impressed with how he slaughtered whole villages in the most gruesome manner imaginable.

I'm sure that him doing the Sieg Heil thing and saying "Long Live the Arab state!" also won't endear him to the 20% of Iraq that isn't Arab. Imagine if Bush said, "Long live the white state!"

Bert X · #4 (**permalink**) 12-05-2005, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adaher

But, we found him in a spider hole, in Iraq. He looks like a hero to them.

Er, I fail to see how. I won't claim to be an expert on Arab culture, but I do recall many Arabs expressing disgust that this man, even though armed, allowed himself to be taken alive.

I also fail to see how anyone can be impressed with how he slaughtered whole villages in the most gruesome manner imaginable.

I'm sure that him doing the Sieg Heil thing and saying "Long Live the Arab state!" also won't endear him to the 20% of Iraq that isn't Arab. Imagine if Bush said, "Long live the white state!"

How many people from the Middle East do you know personally?

Saddam can afford to get beaten up by Americans. Iraqis and others in the Middle East take that as a given. America is seen as the great superpower. They assume they're going to be beaten militarily. That's why they are fighting in an asymetrical way. It's the way they can fight.

Your mistake is in viewing the people of Iraq and the Middle East as a monolith.

adaher · #5 (**permalink**) 12-05-2005, 11:52 PM

I don't. But I think in terms of hatred of Saddam inside Iraq, it's pretty much universal. The last poll I saw found 2% support. Assuming all of those are Sunnis, that's a 10% approval rating among Sunnis. Heck, that could be his tribe. The Tikriti mafia have been running that country for a lot longer than Saddam and aren't too happy about losing power.

Jihad4Beer · #6 (**permalink**) 12-06-2005, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bert X

I think they might START to think about the ugliness of the autocratic systems. But that won't sink in for a while.

I think they are well aware of it.

The problem is public discourse in Arab Society is not as open or free as it is in Western society. Self Criticism may be illegal by the state, and often taboo by the social standards.

To criticize the conservative culture or the Monarchy in power, is like talking about race at a social function. It makes everyone uncomfortable.

I feel this is why I am seeing a lack of opinionated coverage of the Saddam Trial in the Arab press.

But GulfNews.com is providing indepth coverage. And they are located in Dubai which is the most progressive city in the Arab world. The times are changing in Dubai.

Hopefully the winds of change will blow over to other Arab states as well. And ultimately extremists and Terrorists will go the way of the KKK, instead of being tolerated by the greater society.

I am hoping the Saddam Trial will be a catalyst for change in the collective Arab discourse. That is to get them talking as a people about their reality, instead of burying their collective head in the sand or scapegoating everything on to Israel and the West.

Jihad4Beer · #7 (**permalink**) 12-06-2005, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adaher

I don't. But I think in terms of hatred of Saddam inside Iraq, it's pretty much universal. The last poll I saw found 2% support. Assuming all of those are Sunnis, that's a 10% approval rating among Sunnis. Heck, that could be his tribe. The Tikriti mafia have been running that country for a lot longer than Saddam and aren't too happy about losing power.

Yes most Iraqis definitely hate Saddam. And most Kuwaitis and Iranians. But in the rest of the ME, especially in the other Arab nations, there has been a glorification of Saddam as the man who defied America. That's all you got to do to win the hearts and minds of some people. Chavez is another example.

Personally I think the collective wisdom in Arabia is schizophrenic or at least unfocused. And this is reflected by their inability to catch up with the rest of the world in terms of social progress. Their seem so focused on blaming and complaining about Jews and Americans, that they don't do anything about the Absolute Monarchies at home. Maybe the Monarchies planned it that way.

At one time in the 80s Saudi Arabia had a per capita GDP equal to that of the USA at about $28,000/person/year. The Sauds have developed the KSA tremendously over the years, but yet they are at a stale mate debating whether or not to let women drive cars. To me, that's just fucked up. It's a sign of a very confused society. What are they thinking, or what aren't they thinking?

Philip · #8 (**permalink**) 12-06-2005, 12:47 PM

Saddam is being accused of using torture in interrogations. I don't see why warmongering neocons would have a problem with that.

Bert X · #9 (**permalink**) 12-07-2005, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jihad4Peace

I think they are well aware of it.

The problem is public discourse in Arab Society is not as open or free as it is in Western society. Self Criticism may be illegal by the state, and often taboo by the social standards.

To criticize the conservative culture or the Monarchy in power, is like talking about race at a social function. It makes everyone uncomfortable.

I feel this is why I am seeing a lack of opinionated coverage of the Saddam Trial in the Arab press.

But GulfNews.com is providing indepth coverage. And they are located in Dubai which is the most progressive city in the Arab world. The times are changing in Dubai.

Hopefully the winds of change will blow over to other Arab states as well. And ultimately extremists and Terrorists will go the way of the KKK, instead of being tolerated by the greater society.

I am hoping the Saddam Trial will be a catalyst for change in the collective Arab discourse. That is to get them talking as a people about their reality, instead of burying their collective head in the sand or scapegoating everything on to Israel and the West.

These strongman systems are further endorsed by the prevailing religion, especially in Shia Islam. It's similar to [/i]vox rex, vox dius[/i] in Western society. There has been no Reformation or Renaissance in the Middle East.

There have been a couple of Pan-Arabists, like Saddam Hussien, the Assaad regieme in Syria, Nassar in Egypt. But these Pan-Arabists themselves tend to be undemocratic. This happens in societies that have a legacy of monarchies and tribal rule. In the early days of the American republic, there was talk of having the President of the United States elected to a lifetime term. Even the more Westernized Muslim countries aren't exactly models of democracy. Albania is not a center for international commerce. The countries that moved from the totalitarianism of the USSR to democracy the swiftest were formerly Christian or were highly secularized. In short Islam is really too new is what the issue is. As when Christianity first swept Western Europe, the states tended to be far more draconian. Islam is fresh and intense in the culture of the Middle East. The Shah of Iran was deposed for being too Westernized. Iran has turned extremely Islamic compared to its former self. Lebanon was once so Western, people called it European. Lebanon also gave us Abu Nidal later.

The situation is further complicated by the fake map the Western powers drew over the region. Take Iraq for instance. It's really a fake country. It was three provinces in the Ottoman Empire. The Ottoman Empire was defeated in WW1. The British had a policy of divide and control. The only reason there is a Pakistan is because the British created it. It was originally part of India, and was much more peaceful. The West basically "jerrymandered" the Middle East the same way Tom DeLay did to Texas. The former King of Iraq was installed by the British, as was the current monarchy in Kuwait.

It's not going to turn into Iraq isn't going to be Iowa anytime soon.

Bert X · #10 (**permalink**) 12-07-2005, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adaher

I don't. But I think in terms of hatred of Saddam inside Iraq, it's pretty much universal. The last poll I saw found 2% support. Assuming all of those are Sunnis, that's a 10% approval rating among Sunnis. Heck, that could be his tribe. The Tikriti mafia have been running that country for a lot longer than Saddam and aren't too happy about losing power.

I think we agree on that. I think he will be more of a hero to the Osama bin Ladens of the world outside of Iraq. Disaffected Saudis, Jordanians, Syrians, Egyptians will not exactly love and worship him, but will hold him up as a martyr.

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