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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 04-15-2006, 12:05 PM
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goober goober is offline
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Default Re: Sadaam trial is a disaster

Quote:
Originally Posted by adaher
You'd rather us alienate the Iraqi street by denying them their justice?
Since most Iraqis now believe it's a good thing to kill Americans, I'd say that horse has left the barn...........
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 04-15-2006, 03:38 PM
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Richyrich03867 Richyrich03867 is offline
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Default Re: Sadaam trial is a disaster

Goober, you are inferring that Iraq under Saddam's government respected rule of law. Absurd.

The news coverage of his trial give it the appearance of a farce. At the end of the day, however, it will not be difficult to prove in court he engaged in extrajudicial murders.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 04-16-2006, 09:28 PM
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goober goober is offline
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Default Re: Sadaam trial is a disaster

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richyrich03867
Goober, you are inferring that Iraq under Saddam's government respected rule of law. Absurd.

The news coverage of his trial give it the appearance of a farce. At the end of the day, however, it will not be difficult to prove in court he engaged in extrajudicial murders.
It isn't the coverage that makes the trial a farce, it's the trial.
Iraq is not a sovereign nation, it is under military occupation and the occupation forces control the police and military forces.

According to the Iraqi Constitution, the president has immunity from prosecution fro crimes that occurred during his term of office, so under Iraqi law, Saddam cannot be prosecuted. Not only does the constitution promulgated by Saddam say that, but the 1957 constitution says that, so even if you strike out the later constitution, the earlier one would also grant the President immunity.
The rule of law is about process, in the US, "obviously" guilty people are released when illegally collected evidence is suppressed, the rule of law is not about the result, it's about the process.
To charge Saddam with a crime for which he is immune from prosecution violates the Iraqi constitution that was in force at the time of the incident.
Saddam should be brought to a venue where he can be legally charged, such as the Hague.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 04-16-2006, 09:57 PM
adaher adaher is offline
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Default Re: Sadaam trial is a disaster

Saddam's crimes against the Iraqi people must be punished by the Iraqi people.

In the case of a lawless society as Iraq was under Saddam, all laws by necessity have to be after the fact. Murderers, rapists, and burglars who comitted crimes under Saddam's reign don't get to go free either.
  #35 (permalink)  
Old 04-17-2006, 12:22 PM
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goober goober is offline
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Default Re: Sadaam trial is a disaster

Quote:
Originally Posted by adaher
Saddam's crimes against the Iraqi people must be punished by the Iraqi people.

In the case of a lawless society as Iraq was under Saddam, all laws by necessity have to be after the fact. Murderers, rapists, and burglars who comitted crimes under Saddam's reign don't get to go free either.
So he's being tried by a court that was formed by the US, with judges appointed by the US and financed by the US, the prosecution assisted by US attorneys, and certain "crimes" such as the gassing of the Kurds (done with US supplied weapons, at the urging of Donald Rumsfield) are off limits.

He's being tried for a crime that involved an attempt to assasinate him, treason under Iraqi law, the guilty were put to death, which is also the penalty for treason in the US. So the imposition of the death penalty is somehow a crime for which the president is now subject to the death penalty.

This is just victor's justice, where the vanquished leaders are executed, at least the Romans were honest about it, and did it as part of a huge pageant, rather than pretend it was an actual legal proceeding, this has got a lot more in common with Stalin's show trials than with the judgements at Nuremburg.
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-- George W. Bush, asked if the tide is turning in Iraq
  #36 (permalink)  
Old 06-24-2006, 08:28 PM
mjblue2345 mjblue2345 is offline
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Default Re: Sadaam trial is a disaster

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nullum_...a_lege_poenali

ex post facto - After the fact, ordinarily used in reference to constitutional prohibition on ex post facto laws. For example, a person cannot be punished for conduct committed before a criminal law was enacted.

Under Saddam, Iraq was not governed by stated constitutional law and thereby the intention of the leader (in which case, Saddam) is assumed the governing law of the land. Consequently, Saddam broke no Iraqi laws during his rule, and thereby cannot be subject to Iraqi prosecution. Nonetheless, he allegedly (probably) broke numerous international laws (genocide, murder, etc...) and should have been tried in the Hague. Sadly, America doesn't believe in the ICC system.

Additionally, "the recent Iraqi Constitution approved by a referendum held on October 15, 2005, stipulates the following:

Article (19)

Second - There shall be no crime and no punishment without a stipulation [by law]; there shall be no punishment except for an act the law considers a crime at the time of its commission; and no punishment shall be imposed that is more severe than the punishment in effect at the time of the commission of the crime.[6]"

Last edited by mjblue2345; 06-24-2006 at 08:40 PM.
  #37 (permalink)  
Old 06-25-2006, 08:46 AM
doniston's Avatar
doniston doniston is offline
me now,
 
Member Since: Oct 2005
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Default Re: Sadaam trial is a disaster

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny
This is just my opinion. Here is a tyrant finally brought to justice for unthinkable crimes and we hear of him deciding to walk out his courtroom because he doesn't like his trial???

What the hell. Lock the guy up in shackles, gag him, give him a 1 week trial and then send him to prison already. This is a joke.
Yes, but it is our joke. we should have imediately turned him over to the Iraqis, and let them deal with him. WE should have kept our damned nose out of it. (It would have been long over and done with.)
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