Some rungs are lower than others, Andrew.

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[I]668.....the neighbour of the beast.[/I]

But I have no doubt that if Hezbollah had the means, they would be just as destructive as Israel. And in some twisted way, perhaps that will be the only thing in the end that will force Israel to negotiate directly and come to a resolution of the true causes of this conflict.

Andrew

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If you succumb to the temptation of using violence in the struggle...your chief legacy to the future will be an endless reign of meaningless chaos.
~Martin Luther King, Jr.

[IMG]http://www.truthout.org/imgs.art_01/3.081006BC2.jpg[/IMG]

Wrong there Andrew. Israel as well as the US, and Brittian use munitions that are sophisticated and carry shaped charges that damage the building targeted, but tend to leave surrounding buildings standing. As opposed to groups like the Hezi's, that use indiscriminate rockets aimed at population centers for the purpose of killing civilians directly. Your moral equivication is simply a matter of your own guilt.


j-mac

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"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling, which thinks that nothing is worth war, is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.


- John Stuart Mill

I diagree, the weapons themselves are irrelevent to the morality of these situations, besides the effect is always the same, no matter what, more innocent poeple die with modern weaponry than innocent people die by 'terrorist' attacks. Plus, Israel and the US use cluster bombs, which are entirely indiscriminate, and very cruel by nature.

The use of destructive military force on civilian areas, with little to no intelligence as to what is actually on the ground or in the buildings, is not only immoral, it is psychotic and cowardly.

Or in the case of Iraq, when such military force is used based on lies, knowing with 100% certainty there will be mostly innocent casualties, it is completely immoral, never mind your so-called smart bombs and 'good intentions'.

The use of any kind of military force to achieve what are political goals is the height of immorality. Your weapons are still designed to kill no matter what happy face you try to put on it.

Andrew

__________________
If you succumb to the temptation of using violence in the struggle...your chief legacy to the future will be an endless reign of meaningless chaos.
~Martin Luther King, Jr.

[IMG]http://www.truthout.org/imgs.art_01/3.081006BC2.jpg[/IMG]

Video Israel Doesn't Want You to See

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tW1-_JmXQt0

Just watch the video clip, don't forget to turn on the sound.

Don't read the comments on that site, they're pretty bad.

C'mon Andrew, you can not be serious here.....Are you saying that a guided missle, that is shaped to take out a building, leaving others around it standing is the same as firing off a Katusha at a populated area for the sole purpose of killing civilians is the same? And I got news for ya, people die in war, it is tragic to be sure, but the inverse to this is to cowar and let terrorist run our lives, and kill us. Maybe the moral to the story is don't come to a gun fight with stones.......




I know you are saying this to inflame, but the fact of the matter here is that our intel is getting better by the minute, and as for psychotic, you don't think flying airplanes into buildings with nothing but civilians in them is psychotic? Wake up man.



More rhetoric from the 'hate Bush' camp I see.....The military force used in Iraq was in NO WAY based on lies. Faulty intel? ok. But a lie shows intent, and you can not prove that, because the intent to decieve simply does not exist.



And there we have it. Against any kind of force when presented with forces that are bent on killing our civilians is pure suicide. the problem with anti war at all costs folks like yourself, is that you rely on the enemy having good intentions, or a conscience. These Islamo-facist have proven that they don't, so the death comming down on them now is of their making.


j-mac

__________________
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling, which thinks that nothing is worth war, is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.


- John Stuart Mill

I reject the idea that Hezbollah only as the singular goal of killing civilians. They also have, like Israel, political goals. Besides, if we set aside your fantasy for a moment that guided missiles are some how humane, they consistently kill way more innocent civilians than they do the 'enemy'. I don't care what the intentions are so much as the negative effect of either weapon.

You say the "inverse to this is to cowar and let terrorist run our lives". But that makes no sense whatsoever. Every military attack israel launches makes it more likely that terrorists will run their lives. The real inverse is to negotiate and come to a political solution, not live by the fantasy that military force is somehow magical and heroic and will save the day.
Of course I think flying airplanes into buildings is psychotic. Did you already forget that i hold state terrorism and collective punishment practiced by Isarael and the US to be as immoral and stupid as the strategy employed by terrorists.

And no, i did not make that comment to inflame. Israel in this particular situation has not achieved any victory whatsover against Hezbollah, hezbollah has mocked them completely. All israel has done is destroy much of the infrastructure of lebanon, and slaughter innocent people. This is the point you seem to be not getting, regardless of Israels intentions, regardless of her fancy weapons, she is still killing innocent people and making Hezbollah more powerful with each brutal attack. Ironically, Hezbollah is weakening Israel with each of their brutal attacks, even though they are much less deadly, and much less 'precision guided'.



Are you completely oblivious to reality. Bush and his admin ignored all evidence that Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11, ignored all evidence that he had no WMD, ignored the CIA and other foreign intelligence that said the 'yellow cake' document s were forgeries, yet still promoted all these things shamelessly. They even claimed for certain they knew where the weapons were hidden. Come on man, they lied to you and manipulated you completely, and you fell for it. Whats worse is you still believe they just 'made a mistake'.... That is so pathetic and naive.





But again, in your fantasy world death really is coming down on Hezbollah, but in reality it is not. Israel has not eliminated or even slowed the rocket attacks, and the tragedy is this will all end with a bunch of dead civilians on both sides and Hezbollah will still have the ability to launch rockets and they will have more political and influential power throughout the entire region.

Im not anti-war at all costs. Im anti-war when when war is obviously counter-productive, and will lead not to peace or a solution, but will only lead to death and the radicalization of more people, in Israel and in the ME. Why can't you see that war is not always a solution, it is more often than not used out of weakness and hatred than anything else.

Andrew

__________________
If you succumb to the temptation of using violence in the struggle...your chief legacy to the future will be an endless reign of meaningless chaos.
~Martin Luther King, Jr.

[IMG]http://www.truthout.org/imgs.art_01/3.081006BC2.jpg[/IMG]

Andrew negotiation require that both sides are willing to come to an agreement and both sides are willing to abide by that agreement otherwise what is the point of reaching an agreement if the other side is not going to abide by it.

Hezbollah has shown consistent agression against Israel and would have no interest in coming to a settled agreement if force wasn't first used against them. I know you live in a fantasy world where you think that all force is evil but in reality it is sometimes, even often, necessary when oppossing a foe who seeks your destruction. The type of foe now faced by both Israel and the United States if a perfect example of this, they respond only to force.

That's all they've been offered. America has protected Israel with its veto to the detriment of justice.

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[I]668.....the neighbour of the beast.[/I]

I didn't know that.

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[I]668.....the neighbour of the beast.[/I]