Thread: Offensive of the Libyan Army

Originally Posted by Bleipriester

That question also doesn´t make sense.

The question makes plenty of sense; who is making these claims.

Gadaffi is not unreliable.

Yes, yes he is. He is COMPLETELY unreliable. He has shown zero compunction against lying to protect himself and to damage his enemies. He has funded terrorist groups both here in the US and around the world for the express purpose of damaging the West. Why on earth would we take his claims seriously?

Watch the videos, I linked to, and you´ll see, who´s the bad guy.

Ok, first off, learn some fucking Arabic. Seriously. They're yelling at the guys telling them to save ammunition and not shoot randomly. The smashing up that's going on is a building that belongs to the government, it's not civilian.

Originally Posted by Hoplite

You dont see why the regime in power, that we KNOW is corrupt and hostile, would claim that the rebel forces trying to oust them are killing innocent civilians to the outside world?

The only false reporting, that I've witnessed, was from Western news sources (eg. Ghaddafi issuing Viagra to troops so they could serial rape was complete horseshit).

What particular reports are you referring to or what corruption could you show me that hasn't been shown to be completely bogus.

Originally Posted by fishjoel

The only false reporting, that I've witnessed, was from Western news sources (eg. Ghaddafi issuing Viagra to troops so they could serial rape was complete horseshit).

What particular reports are you referring to or what corruption could you show me that hasn't been shown to be completely bogus.

Quick google search :
- Infoplease - The 2006 Transparency International Corruption Perceptions Index
- heritage - Libya information on economic freed...
- LibyaTV - Confessions of a Briber
I have a hard time finding a source I would actually trust. But anyway, there is a lot of those links. Note that a corrupt government doesn't imply a lying government, Greece hasn't been bombed recently. It's more for the "hostile" part that one doubts the source.
Now I'm a bit disappointed because I can't find that report when pro-Ghaddafi claimed to have sunk a NATO warship. It was the best on my list of "inaccurate" reports.

Latest NATO bombing in Sirt

Libya: Sirte Inside - 9/17/2011, NATO criminals bomb civilian homes, Part 2 - YouTube

Originally Posted by Vuld Edone

Quick google search :
- Infoplease - The 2006 Transparency International Corruption Perceptions Index
- heritage - Libya information on economic freed...
- LibyaTV - Confessions of a Briber

Just on the first two of your links, the "confession of a briber" I am not even discussing!

I simply LOVE the way Westerners apply THEIR OWN perseptions of how the societies should work to any and every society around the world without the slightiest glance at the cultural and traditional differences!

What is a "bribe" and "corruption" to the Westerner is a traditional part of everyday life especially in tribal or near-tribal societies! Is that so difficult to understand?!

In your table Georgia scored higher then Ukraine, which means Georgia is less corrupt. This is as ridiculous as it can get! In Georgia you can't do anything without giving something to someone or pay favour for a favour. But because Saakashvili is now calling most bribes "taxes" Georgian corruption level fell!
Do you know you can get driving license in Georgia withing few hours without any tests or medical? Before for that you had to pay someone (a bribe), now you pay it to the official department (a tax)! But the Western "reputable" and "reliable" organisations are happy -- Georgia became less corrupt!
And you call that a "trusting source"?! It's an IGNORANT source!

Next one on your list: "information on economic FREEDOM". What the hell is "economic freedom"? Is it when foreign corporations are allowed to plunder a country while at the same time flooding it with the goods that can't be sold in more "civilised world" like we see in Ukraine now?

Originally Posted by Alma

Just on the first two of your links, the "confession of a briber" I am not even discussing!

I simply LOVE the way Westerners apply THEIR OWN perseptions of how the societies should work to any and every society around the world without the slightiest glance at the cultural and traditional differences!

What is a "bribe" and "corruption" to the Westerner is a traditional part of everyday life especially in tribal or near-tribal societies! Is that so difficult to understand?!

I agree on all. I should have checked those links more seriously. As I said, I had a hard time finding a link that would actually be credible. It's easier with Greece... I especially agree on my third link, if I had taken the time to actually read the date I would have erased it.
I also agree with the difference of culture and there, I'll trust you. It is difficult to understand, but it makes sense, and I effectively applied western standards to a society I don't know much about. All in all, to answer the question I should have gone deeper into details.
So yeah, sorry for that.

I think the "corrupt" subject may refer to the distribution of wealth in the country, notably between east and west Libya, and the unemployment or such proposed as a cause for the uprising. But it would imply efforts to actually talk about it and I'm not sure it's interesting.

Returning on the subject, what's interesting to me is that rebels are using mortars on Bani Walid, and that civilians have been seen fighting with pro-Ghaddafi units. That, and I feel like watching a rerun of Misrata siege from Libya's army perspective.
Plus, given their setbacks and the air campaign, pro-Ghaddafi units have performed remarkably.

Originally Posted by Vuld Edone

Returning on the subject, what's interesting to me is that rebels are using mortars on Bani Walid, and that civilians have been seen fighting with pro-Ghaddafi units.

Absolute majority of civilians were always pro-Gaddafi (all right, they were not always actively fighting, but sitting watching an army fight until the trouble was at their very door)! Without their support NATO/rebels would've taken control of Libya in the first week.

In Beni Walid there is a very small number of Libyan military, almost all fighting is done by Warfallar tribes. In Sirt there is more Libyan military, but again, the resistance comes mostly from Gaddafa tribe.

Tribes will fight to the death for THEIR territories, Gaddafi's task would be to organise them to move outside their tribal zone...